Fire and Spark

You didn’t speak English, right?

That’s true. My parents met in Germany. My mom’s parents also had a farm in South Carolina, where they moved after marriage. So until I was four, it was me, my mom and my dad living on this farm until my dad decided to go to med school. Then we moved to Charleston in a little suburb called Summerville. And my mom tells the story always. We moved in, and I saw the kids playing on the street, and I said, “Marky kindishbelan”, which means Mark wants to play with the kids, but I literally couldn’t speak a lick of English.

When I go to Germany, I’m no longer fluent. But kids learn quickly. So I think within a couple of weeks, I was at least able to communicate. But give me a week, and we can talk and have a conversation. It’s a funny story for sure.

Do you remember dreaming in German?

This is going to sound sad, but I rarely remember dreams even now, unless they’re bad ones.

That’s a fascinating upbringing. I’m curious, were your parent’s amazing chefs? What did you grow up eating?

We grew up eating very traditional German stuff. My mom’s a wonderful cook, but my grandmother is even better. She’s impressive. They hosted a lot. I remember as a child, in the summers, my grandmother hosted 30 or 40 people at their house for dinner. I always thought it was super impressive because she did it by herself. And I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a housewife or anyone be able to do that at home. I could do it at home, but she’s not a professional. I always thought that was super cool. And I think in some ways, probably like those experiences guided me down this path of wanting to be a hospitality professional. Showing people a good time; feed them, give them wine, create an environment where everyone’s smiling, having a good time and can connect.

When you were around your grandmother, was she teaching you?

No, I think she probably wished that I would’ve gone away. I was just always in the way, but I was always interested. I always loved food. I always loved eating. I didn’t realize until during college how much I really liked cooking. She would teach me things here or there, but I didn’t realize it was happening inside me.

On Mark’s First Job As a Chef.

Tell me about the day when you realized, “you know what? I think this is me.”

It’s hard to forget. I bartended and served all through college at different restaurants in Madison, WI. There was a day where I was supposed to be bartending, and one of the cooks didn’t show up. I told the owner, Sammy, “I’m by no means a professional cook, but if you guys need the help, I’ll get in there, and I’ll do my best.” And it was a disaster. I had no idea what I was doing.

But the rush I got from it and being taught by the other guys in the line, the camaraderie and them asking me if I’d come back the next day and do it. Whether they just needed help or whether they saw something in me. I felt that rush. And there are people who ask me this all the time, and it’s my favourite thing about cooking for a living. It’s one of the only careers I can think of where you get instant gratification from making something and then getting to see someone hopefully enjoy it. And like the smile on their face, watching someone eat, something you just put on a plate is one of the things that still drives me to this day.

What possessed you to volunteer?

I don’t know. I grew up playing a lot of team sports, so the idea of a team and community is important to me. I’m not a cocky person, but I’ve always been pretty quick at picking things up. Either someone helps at the restaurant because we’re down a cook, or the restaurant has a horrible night. I just gave it a shot.

You’ve never been afraid of failing?

Mindy Segal was one of my mentors here in Chicago. She always told me that one of my biggest strengths was that I wasn’t afraid to make mistakes. And that I learned from them very quickly. That’s one of the best compliments I’ve ever received. It’s also been kinda like a guiding ethos of how I cook and how I run my restaurant. I don’t know everything, but I’m not scared to f*ck it up. I definitely don’t screw up the same way more than once. And I definitely take the time to learn from those mistakes and figure out how to not let other people make them too.

I love that. So they bring you back the next night. What happens?

The next night was great. I held down the station by myself. They helped me with prep because I didn’t know what I was doing. It was a weekend, and it wasn’t slow. It was a small little French restaurant called Le Chardonnay. It was by no means a great restaurant, but there are only so many good places in Madison. It was busy, and we held it down, and it was fun. I remember having a beer afterwards. I was like, “Wow like, I can’t believe we just fed those people.” On Day 2, I could be a part of this kitchen team and hold my own. It was amazing.

Where do you go from that, man?

My career’s been a lot of luck. A lot of right place, right time. And a sh*t ton of hard work, too. Don’t get me wrong. This was my senior year, so I graduated, and I decided I was gonna keep cooking there. I got into law school at Northwestern and decided that I was gonna take six months off and just keep cooking. So shortly after I started in the kitchen, the sous chef left, probably two months after I started cooking. And so the owner offered me the sous chef job, which is not something that happens to someone after two months of cooking. So I took it, and then the chef quit, and the owner asked if I’d stick around and run his kitchen for a while.

And honestly, I laughed. I was like, “dude. I’ve been cooking for three months. I have no idea about costing, ordering, like any of this stuff.” I’m good at spreadsheets. But I didn’t even know where to begin. So I did that for about six months. To put it mildly, it was a very expensive learning experience for him. But I taught myself how to make sure we’re making money. How to not buy fish that cost $20/lb. But the biggest thing I got out of it was learning what I wanted to cook and starting to think creatively about it. I couldn’t do it there, this was a tiny little French Mediterranean place, but I was definitely having thoughts about it.

So, I’m pretty locked into it. I’m doing mussels bouillabaisse. Classic stuff. But I found myself trying to like sneak in little bits of like Southern or German. I could sneak a little German because there’s Strausberg where they speak German in France. He was cool and let me go with it a little bit. But I realized that I needed to go see more and learn more and be exposed to more. And I also really needed to learn how to cook. I had some natural abilities, but I didn’t know any technique.

Where would you document these thoughts?

I have journals everywhere. I still have most of them downstairs. It’s funny. Sometimes, I’ll go back and look at them, and the ideas are to me now so stupid. But it’s cool to look back and see like a progression of the ideas. One of the ideas in my notebook – this had to be maybe 2006- 2007 – was an idea for a restaurant that was German. But not traditional. Kind of rooted in my upbringing. 15 years later, here we are.

I agree with that. I’m a guy who keeps a lot of journals because you can see the seeds and the crumbs of ideas over time. And that’s why I keep veracious notes. A lot of people tell me that my best talent is that I remember everything. I only remember it because I write it down.

People tell me that all the time too. I have a very strange memory. I can’t remember facts, historical things, but when it comes to something that I’m interested in, I remember. I think it’s one of my best traits because it allows me to grow. You remember where you came from. You remember where you started and you remember little things along the way.

You said something really interesting. You said, “I knew I needed to go and learn how to cook.” So, two questions: 1) what the hell were you doing in that restaurant if you weren’t cooking? And 2) where did you go to actually learn?

I don’t know. I’m smart, and I work hard enough to replicate something if you show it to me. And so that’s what I was doing there. There were like 12 dishes. You show me twice, and I can do it exactly how you want me to do it.

So it was mimicry, really?

Yeah. And not that it was easy, but it’s like anything else. Show me how to set this up twice. And I’ll do it. But I knew that this was something that I was gonna do with my life. And I started to think that’s what I wanted to do—the idea of having that rush and that feeling of getting to see people enjoy. I was addicted to it. And that’s something that happens in our business. You get hooked on the rush and the adrenaline and getting to see people have a great time because of you. But I knew that I was not prepared to do it yet, and I knew that I wasn’t gonna learn much more in Madison.

So I moved to Chicago with the intent of going to culinary school, which actually never happened. I took a job instead. My first job here was at Hot Chocolate as a line cook working for Mindy Segal – a James Beard award-winning pastry chef.

On Mark’s Move to Chicago.

How did you get that job?

Honestly, I moved here. I got a horrible apartment with two of my friends in Lincoln Park, and I just went on the internet and started googling Chicago restaurants. I picked out like 20 that I thought looked interesting, knowing nothing about the dining scene here or really anything at all. And it was like Blackbird, Avec, Hot Chocolate. It was 15 or 20 places. Half of them wouldn’t even have me in because I had no experience other than learning how to cook 12 dishes in a Madison, WI restaurant. But I walked into hot chocolate, and they were in dire need of help.

Mindy and Lindsay — who was the sous chef at that time —said I could start the next day for a stage. I didn’t know what that meant. So I went back to the internet and searched, “what is a stage?” It turns out you come and work for free for a day to make sure that they like you and you like them. I showed up about a half-hour late because I got lost trying to get the bus there, but they hired me. The way the kitchen worked there was weird, and I hated it for a long time, but it’s again another thing I think was very formative for me.

Mindy’s restaurant is not there any more now. But like I said, she’s a pastry chef. They had a full bar and a full menu, but small. And the amount of space allocated towards making desserts versus the amount of space allocated towards making dinner was very, very skewed. So the focus was these ten desserts, her hot chocolates.

Could you give a ratio?

Oh, man. Like 10:1, at least. It was not a huge restaurant. There were about 85 seats, but the pastry kitchen was on display. You see it right in the back. To the left of that, there are about 12 feet with like one cooler, six burners, one deep fryer. And eventually, we got a grill, but I petitioned for that.

A year and a half in, I became the sous chef there, making burgers. Chicago Magazine voted our burger the number two burger in the city, and we were cooking them out of a pan. A grill pan on the stove. First of all, I only have six burgers. I have one grill pan that can fit three burgers at a time. This article comes out, and at lunch the next day, 120 people are trying to order hamburgers because we got number two in the city. And so imagine trying to cook 120 hamburgers out of one pan that fits three.

We got through it. I was like marking them off, putting them on sheets trays into the oven. But I came to Mindy afterwards. And I was like: “Look, if we want to have this number two burger in the city, we have to figure out a way to do this consistently. Because I know all the ones I just made were good. But they’re not what they’re supposed to be.” So two days later, a brand new shiny grill shows up along with a new range.

On Mindy Segal.

Tell me about Mindy.

Mindy’s an interesting person. We’re very close again now. There was a period when we weren’t, and I won’t delve into all the nitty-gritty details, but she was, and is, one of the most important people in my life, culinary speaking. She was not a “chef chef” but a pastry chef. But she worked in great restaurants and had great connections. She introduced me to a ton of people. She had Bill Kim; he went on to open Charlie Trotters and a bunch of restaurants in Chicago. He was just a great guy. A guy who was taught me how to develop my food and run a kitchen. She hired him for me for about three months, and he spent every day with me. He helped me take what I wanted to make and put it into an idea that made sense.

When I started there, they had roast chicken, some sandwiches, and a couple of salads. Food wasn’t a focus. One of the kindest things Mindy ever told me is that I saved her restaurant. Once she kind of trusted me, I started changing things. I got rid of most of the sandwiches except the burger. We turned it into a restaurant that people came to dinner for. And then, of course, they came for dessert too. We had those people, but it became a busy place from five until we closed, instead of just people coming at nine for dessert. The last time we talked, she said her biggest regret was that she didn’t pay me more and help me open something with her next door.

Why do you think she didn’t do that at the time?

So our relationship, as great as it is now, wasn’t always great. We were volatile because we were both very passionate people, and I knew what I thought I wanted it to be. And she knew what she thought it was. There were things I wanted to do that she didn’t. We spent a lot of time fighting when we spent a lot of time crying, but we spent a lot of time hugging because we’re very, very close and we’re very similar. So I have a great deal of gratitude for her, for everything she did for me. And I know that she feels the same way about me and we’re having dinner next week, and she was talking about wanting to do something together again.

You said in Madison, you knew your growth had a ceiling. So tell me about the day you knew you had to leave Hot Chocolate.

Oh, man. I think just over six years. I felt really good about what we had done, and her restaurant was busy. For me, busy is weekdays. Because like any restaurant worth its salt is busy Friday and Saturday. Busy is making sure you’re making money during the week. So, you know, 75 to 100 people during the week.

People were coming, and it wasn’t just neighbour people. We had chefs coming in to eat. I was proud, and she was happy. It was a good time for us. But I was still trying to sneak bits of my food in, just like at La Chardonnay. I wanted to do my stuff, and I started developing my style. But I couldn’t do it there. So I started thinking about what it would take to do it. I felt ready mentally and skill-wise to start delving into what my food was, but she didn’t have the equipment or staff to accomplish that. So I started looking around at other jobs.

On Life After Hot Chocolate.

Did you go back to Google?

No, at that point, I had a network of relationships. I was supposed to take over a place on the gold coast, now called Bistronomic. It would be a version of Carriage House, which I opened up. So I took a road trip through the south for three weeks expecting to come back and kind of jump into this job. And I got back, and the guy changed his mind and said he was going a different route. And I was like, “oh, no, now what?”

We still talk; he’s a good guy. He just was worried. And I understand his concern too. You know, I was 26, 27. I was known in the community as a talented young chef, but I’d never like opened something or run my own restaurant. And so, I think maybe he had second thoughts about me not being able to handle that aspect. That’s a valid concern. It’s his money on the line. I don’t hold any ill will towards him. Things wouldn’t have ended up how they are if I’d taken that job. So yeah, it was a weird summer. I did some hand modelling for a knife skills book. I have a buddy who’s the corporate chef for Hinkel knives, and they were writing a book. It’s the Henkel book of knife skills.

Weren’t your hands destroyed from being a chef? They talk about the chef’s callous!

It was lucky timing because I needed a job, obviously, and he reached out, and so that was about four months, and he’s not a writer. He’s like a former chef, and his partner is a teacher at Kendall, so they needed some help. I studied English and history in college, so I’m a decent writer. I wish I would’ve asked for more money because I just got paid as a hand model, but I ended up re rewriting a lot of the sections because we would read through it and then I’d have to act out each part, and I’m like, “well this isn’t how you would do this. So let’s start over and write how a chef would do this. Wow.

And then I have a good friend to this day, Michael Dean, a chef who was working at that place called the Gage downtown. And they were opening a new place. 26 South Michigan. They were opening a little French place next door. And so they were looking for some more management at the gauge. And so I went and interviewed with Billy, who’s the owner and Dirk the chef and got hired there as the executive SU chef for their two places, which was a really good experience for me too because that place does volume. Until then, I’d worked in smaller restaurants. It working there taught me two things, two big things. One – that I don’t want to have a restaurant that big. And two – it taught me how to expedite well and should and how to manage.

The line there is huge. There are 12 guys. But we would consistently do like 400 people on Friday and Saturday’s. At hot chocolate, if we were doing like 150, that was big time. I’ll never forget. There was a Sunday night, and I was at the Gage. Sunday nights were my night by myself. There was a Bon Jovi concert and a Bears vs Packers game at Soldier Field. We did 650 people before 7:00 PM. I lost my voice. But again, it’s going back to like what Mindy said about not being afraid to make mistakes. And I’m also pretty cool under pressure.

What was that like?

It was daunting, but it didn’t get to me. You just put your head down, you figure out how to get organized, how to make this happen. How to not let anyone other than you in the kitchen know that you’re in the sh*t. The guests can’t feel it, you know? And so that’s what I learned how to do there. I think it’s the biggest thing I learned there. And at places I worked after, cooks will tell me: “wow, you’re one of the best accelerators we’ve ever seen.” I was like, “Yeah, because have you ever had to do 700 covers in three hours?”

Can you explain that concept of expediting?

So expediting is just so the cooks are on one side of the kitchen or the pass as we call it. Yep. The passes where they put the food up and then the other side is the chef or usually, or the expeditor. And so we are the ones getting the tickets that the servers ring in with food, and at the gauge, it was different because they had computers. So the cooks see the tickets come in as well. But at my restaurant, like the cooks don’t get any tickets. Cause I don’t like them looking. I like them listening. I like them working. My job is to call everything and group it. So it’s not confusing for them to hear how many of each dish they’re working on what I need first. So everyone gets their food at the same time. And really it’s like being the composer of the restaurant. And it’s my favourite thing in the world because everything about tonight is in my hands.

If I screw up and send things to the wrong table like it’s going to be a mess if people wait too long. And, but it’s also about knowing when to stop calling tickets for a little bit when they’re getting bogged down, it’s about knowing like what they’re capable of and like giving them the time to like clear these four tickets out before you tell them more. This goes back to how I manage, which is like, you have to understand how everyone’s different. Their strong points and their weak points. Maybe this guy could handle it, but you know that guy can’t right now. So we’re going to put this right here, wait five minutes, and then we’ll get back to it. You know, it’s so it’s a big job, but it’s, it’s one that I truly, genuinely love doing because it’s not. And not that I’m a control freak, but like I love being the person making sure that everyone’s having a great time.

So you do the Gage. That’s big-time Michigan avenue, and back then, the centre of Chicago. Why does the Chicago food scene move to the neighbourhoods?

I don’t know what caused the emergence of the neighbourhood in Chicago because ever since I moved here, my favourite thing about this city has been the different neighbourhoods and the different things you can find in each one. I can’t answer what caused it, but I’m glad it happened—knowing that the neighbourhoods can support these cool little businesses and that downtown and suburbs will support them too. You don’t have to be downtown.

I think a big reason for that shift is probably rent. Because guys like me want to do our own thing, I can’t afford to pay $50,000 a month in rent. You know, maybe I could if I had a big enough place, but the idea of signing that least terrifies me.

And you don’t want to do 600 covers.

I can, but I don’t want to. I can’t do the food I want to do and keep it the same and keep the quality.

How are those Michigan Ave restaurants today?

I had lunch at the Gage with a friend a week ago. I’ve never been, so it was still as good as I remembered. But it seemed kind of formulaic. And I think all those places, in many ways, are the same place. You know, you have your steaks, you have your fish of the day, you have your soup of the day and, and it can be delicious, but it’s just not like what I wanted to do.

I’m sure this is why they’re busy for lunch, but they had six sandwiches on the menu, and you could order any of them, or you could order a half sandwich of this and half of this. Or you could order a half sandwich with one of the three different soups. So imagine reading these tickets coming in. And it’s all business lunches. So it’s like big parties and trying to coordinate the half chicken sandwich with half chicken soup, half chicken sandwich, half salad, and figuring out how to tell the food in order like this is where this is going. It’s impossible. It’s just a nightmare to look at. But anyway, it helped me learn how to expedite better too.

On Life after Michigan Avenue.

So tell me about the day when you knew you had to leave Michigan Avenue.

Honestly, there wasn’t a day where I knew I had to leave. I got a phone call one day from someone I’d never met before. He was a friend of a friend, and his name was Pete. He and some partners were opening a place in Wicker Park called the Bedford and I had come recommended to them by John Manion who was the chef at El Che, another place I’m a partner at.

Pete was asking John if he knew any talented young chefs who were like looking for a new gig, but could also handle the numbers and understood how to read a P&L. John mentioned my name and Pete called. To be honest, I’d only been at the Gage for about nine months and I don’t generally like to leave a job before a year is up. But I did feel like I was ready to kind of move on and do my thing a little bit though.

This wasn’t the time I actually got to do my thing. But it was a step in that direction. It was one of the hardest conversations I ever had to have was sitting Billy down cause I really respect him and, and he did a lot for me, but tell him that I was giving a month notice and I was gonna move on. I remember he’s got a thick Irish accent and he was like, “I thought, we’d have you for at least another year.” And I was like, “I’m sorry, Billy. I truly feel bad, but I have to, I gotta move on.”

How did you evaluate the offer at Bedford? What does a young chef who’s on the rise look for?

I think I made it less interesting. For me, knowing where I wanted to end up, which was owning my own place or places and doing my food and running things my way, I knew that the step in that direction was to be like the executive chef of a place. And, once I came to that conclusion, it was really a pretty simple decision. It almost didn’t matter what the place was. I just needed to get that on the resume and keep moving forward and upward.

When was this? Are you established at this point?

So this was 2010-11. No, it was 2009, so I was 28 I think. Wow. Yeah, so I took the job there. Ended up being not what I thought it was gonna be. It was in the basement of an old bank building and it was a very cool space, but more cocktail bar driven than I would’ve hoped or I was led to believe. We figured how to make some cool food. I’m proud of everything we did. We still got three stars from the Trin. But again, it wasn’t what I wanted to do.

How quickly did you know it wasn’t what you wanted?

I walked in and saw the place after I agreed to take the job. It was a little small, so that should have been a bit of a red flag, but I was too excited. It didn’t matter. But then I saw the way it was decorated and, and what they were going for. And like, I was a little, a little letdown, but I’m always up for a challenge.

Did you share that with them?

Yeah, eventually. Opening a place is such a cluster. Like there are so many things going on. I didn’t feel it was appropriate to raise an issue pre-opening. I thought that we could maybe grow it into something closer to what I wanted and, and we did.

Do you think they knew how you were feeling?

Probably not. They weren’t the most in-tune guys, but honestly, I don’t think they cared. They knew what they wanted and, and we made it good. We were busy. But, after I told them this is not exactly what I want, we started looking at other properties and we found a place down the street on division.

And we started working on opening this concept that was mine. And that was Carriage House, which was based on the food of Charleston where I grew up. And so this point I was really excited. It was a small place we had about 80 seats, 110 with the patio and they really just kinda let me go with it.

So I did a lot of research. I love the food of where I grew up, but it’s almost always very heavy in that it uses a lot of Ru and thick cream sauces. And I wanted to put my spin on it. And one of the ideas I’ve always had is, “how do I clean up the food that I grew up with?” So our approach was really to replicate the flavors of the food that I loved, but modernize it and clean it up with some technique so that it tasted and felt like what it’s supposed to, but you didn’t feel like garbage when you left.

And that was to this day, one of the best restaurant experiences I’ve ever had. Our staff was one of the best. I don’t know how I got all these people to be honest with you. But I had Bryce Karen who was former pastry chef at Blackbird, he was cooking fish for me. Joe Carnahan, who was my, was my GM at Funkenhausen, used to be a sous chef. He was a line cook for me. So we opened it and it was crazy, man. Like the place was packed every day. We got Esquire’s best new restaurant in the country. I didn’t even know the guy was coming through. When I heard that we were on the short list for it, it blew my mind.

And when you say it was yours, what does that mean?

So I was a partner there with the same guys as the Bedford. I owned 25% of the business helped raise money, but I didn’t personally put any in. I was so excited about this, this thing that was mine, and this idea that I had, that I didn’t spend enough time doing my due diligence. What ended up happening was there was like two companies, one of which I didn’t own any of that actually owned the company that I owned part of.

So we paid a fee to my partner every month, which I didn’t see a part of. This fee caused us to not be that profitable. And then I was getting flack for not making more money. And it’s like, well, you know if you guys didn’t take that fee, we’d be great.

It sucked. But lessons learned, and yeah, we ended up parting ways about two years after we opened.

Did you know there was a parent company?

I’m pretty good at paperwork. So I started trying to figure out like where this money was going and did a little paper trail. And you look hard enough, you can find anything. And so I sat him down and I was like, “Hey, I know this is on me, because I should’ve had someone look at this, but this is kind of terrible.”

Do you know what they were taking?

15% of profit every month.

And can you just put that into context?

Ah man, sometimes six grand, sometimes 12, sometimes 18. It’s absurd to expect us to keep running profitably when you’re taking all this money. And it, it would be one thing if they were reinvesting it or working in the restaurant.

So I was living there busting my ass every day, trying to keep it going and loved it. I truly loved that restaurant and yeah, they were just not like trying to make it not work, but like they were making it not work,.

So it was getting critical acclaim, but you weren’t getting the paycheck to match?

And neither were the investors, which was a big thing for me. Like I had some friends and family invest in that restaurant and most of them never saw that money. I couldn’t do it anymore. And they, I mean, in some ways they pushed me a little bit too, which I wasn’t mad about. Because I was just tired of being exhausted and angry about it, about something I couldn’t change, you know? So they turned it into a place called Bucks, which lasted about eight months after I left and then shut down. It’s still hard for me to go over there. I was at the bar across the street called Bangers and Lace and, and I was there to meet a friend last week, and it was really hard for me to sit there and see it. Just because I knew what it could have been. And you look at division street now and how busy it is. We would’ve made it till now. I was mad. I’m not mad anymore. Learned my lessons. Yeah. Found better partners and we’ll do that concept again somewhere else.

At the risk of sounding repetitive, tell me where you go from there.

So from from there, I think I went to Mexico. For like two weeks to just get the out of town to Toulum. It’s beautiful. It’s getting a little overrun now, but I just needed to clear my head, go sit on a beach, drink too much.

Any reason why you go to Mexico and not back to you German heritage?

Honestly I think I just wanted to relax and lay somewhere and have someone bring me drinks. And not be around anybody I know or like have to do anything or just leave me alone for two weeks. Let me get my head straight. So, I come back and I got offered several jobs.

Billy who owned the Gage offered me the job at the Dawson to be the chef there. And part of me wishes I would’ve taken it, at least for a while. It was a lot of money. But we got in the argument about the burgers and I was still young and stubborn. And I was like, “I don’t want to have two hamburgers on the menu. So unless you’re willing to budge, I’m not doing it.”

Wow. That’s what it came down to.

I was tired of having people tell me what to do. You can give me like a framework to work within and I’m happy. But let me do make my food and let me make your place busy. And let me make your guests happy. Like don’t tell me what I have to make. I never liked that.

But anyway, so I started chatting with my buddy John Manion, who was the one who recommended me for the job. This had to be 2014-15.. And he, at that time was running a place called La Serena Clandestina, which was cool little Brazilian restaurant in the West Loop. And he needed help. And I was like, “look, man, can I just like come work your grill. I don’t want to be responsible for anything. I just wanna come cook food.” Let me just cook. It’s his dishes and his menu. I said, “I’ll come cook your steaks perfectly and I’ll make this whatever you want.” I don’t have to think about ordering. I don’t have to think about creating stuff. I don’t have to do anything except show up, put the plates up, clean up, and go home. And that sounded nice for a little bit, you know? And we were old friends too. So while I’m working there, we’re chatting and he’s been thinking about opening another place called El Che, about six block away.

So we came to this kind of framework where we said, “what if I helped you open El Che? I’ll be the chef de cuisine there for a little while. We’ll get you all your staff hired. I’ll help you with the menus, make it excellent. And then once it’s excellent, you help me with my thing. And that seems liked a good idea. And in a lot of ways it was.

It wasn’t gonna be a group because John wanted to keep his things, his things. And like, I wanna keep my things, my things, and like, there would be advantages to a group, but I’m stubborn and lI have my way that I think I want to do it. That’s what’s gonna happen, you know? So anyways, El Che opens, it went very well. I still love the place. And then we started working on on Funkenhausen after that.

On Opening El Che.

How quickly do you know something’s going to go good or bad?

I’d say within the first couple of months. El Chewas good, and it still is today. It feels like Dan designed the room, and it’s perfect. We went to Argentina together, which was a blast. I gained like 40 pounds because all you eat is steak every day. But it was a cool place. And if you haven’t been to El Che, check it out. There’s no gas equipment on the line. It’s all wood burning. So it’s just like a 16-foot fireplace, right down from Soho House in Chicago.

And so, how long were you there?

We got it open, and I worked there for about nine months. Maybe Closer to a year.

Did you break your 1-year rule again?

That doesn’t matter. I owned a piece. It’s different. What happened was Dan and one of our other partners, Mike, had found a building on Chicago Avenue, so we started raising money and figuring out what it was going to be. It was going to be one of my ideas that I always had, one of the first ones I wrote down in my book, in college, you know?

Did you consult those old notebooks?

Oh yeah, I still do. But just reading them you can tell the ideas are blurred. One says, “German restaurant with Southern flair.” Like what the is that? Get specific. Like really spend the time to spend time dialling in doing research. What is this going to be? Is it going to be fast-casual? Is it going to be super high end? How German is it? How Southern is it? We spent a lot of time with that, spent a lot of time raising money, went to Germany, went back home for a while.

So when you go to a place like Argentina or go back to Germany for inspiration, what the hell does that look like? Is it a holiday from paradise?

It’s work. You’re just going to all these places. We’re doing three big meals a day, sometimes four.

Explain that? So you get up and then what?

Get up at X, and we usually have breakfast, get coffee. I planned our itinerary in Argentina, at least food-wise. My friend Paige was doing the wine. She planned all the vineyard tours, so I found a mix of really traditional Argentinian steakhouses and modern spots. And then some cool cocktail bars that also did the cooking over wood. And so I had like literally 40 places that we had to hit in a week. And that’s just in Buenos Aires. We, we spent three days in Mendoza too. And so we go, and you have a big lunch at one of these places.

Can you define big lunch?

Oh, man. So there’s five of, six of us. Big lunch was like three steaks, sweetbreads.

And everyone has to eat everything?

In the beginning. Yeah. Towards the end, we dialled it back and still ordered the same amount. Because we all wanted to try everything, but there’s no possible way. Like I would have to buy new clothes. Like it was, it was gross. You can’t find vegetables there. It’s bizarre. Like they don’t serve them. And if you do, it’s, it’s a pepper that’s stuffed with beef. I had a blast. It’s fun; it’s vacation. But it’s also work and research.

How do you guys make sure you remember? Do you have a notebook, or do you have a scoring system? And can you rank these things?

Well, personally speaking, I have a notebook. Like the one you gave me. Everyone restaurant has a page, and there’s no like scoring system, but I write down tasting profiles, things I liked, things I didn’t. What was the best chimichurri we had on the trip? Why? Even service styles. We wanted to make sure that we were bringing a certain feeling from Argentina back to El Che, as well, not just food. It was a lot of homework, but it was worth it because I think El Che is one of the best steakhouses, if not the best steakhouse, in Chicago.

All six of you committing to that process?

No. So I was there with John, who was committed to it, his wife, who I’m sure in some ways was as she’s a front of the house person. My wife at the time, Daniella, was there. She was just on vacation. Dan, my partner and then Paige, who would do the wine but opted out at the end. I know Dan, John and I were very focused on the architecture, the feeling we wanted to bring back in the food and Paige was very focused on that plus wine. We made some cool relationships. We ate way too much, drank way too much.

Do you tell them, or do you act like you are some invisible diner?

There was one place we went to in Mendoza. There’s a famous Argentine chef called named Francis Malman. He’s like the godfather of live fire cooking. So he wasn’t there, but we went to one of his restaurants and spoke with the chefs for a while. And like they took us back to their kitchen and showed us how they’re like hanging meats and doing all these things as I’d never seen before. And to be honest, it seemed kind of unsafe. Just hanging meat at a certain temperature after a while isn’t a great idea, but it was cool to see their process, and it was even cooler to figure out how we could take some of their processes and make it ours and do it in a way that we felt comfortable with.

But the big thing to come out of that trip for me personally was in Mendoza. We went to taste wine at this place, and it was a German couple living in Mendoza making Malbec. Wow. And the name of the vineyard was a Funckenhausen, spelt differently.

How was it spelt?

F-U-N-C-K-E-N-H-A-U-S-E-N.

Spark and flame.

Yeah. Dan and I, we’d already been talking about the restaurant and like what it was going to be like. And so that became a joke placeholder name,

A little universe moment.

We’re just going to call it Funckenhausen until we get the real name. And then it came time to talk about what the name was. And then I was like, “Dan. This is the name.” We’re going to spell it differently. It doesn’t mean anything literally, but it means a lot to me. And it says so much about what our concept is. It’s like a funky, weird mashup of Southern German food and my personal experiences. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense on paper, but it does.

On Building Funkenhausen.

So tell me how you built this place. It’s amazing to be in here without any guests. You really get a sense of its beauty.

It was markedly different. So originally, it was a furniture store in the late 1800s. When we found out it was a CrossFit gym. So pretty much right where we are sitting, there was a boxing ring. Behind where the kitchen is was the most horrifying bathroom locker room I’ve ever seen. Rubber floors everywhere.

Our initial plan was to put wood down, but as we tore away the rubber floor, then a layer of linoleum. We found what you see now, which is original. I don’t know if you can see it, but there are some streaks of green here and there, which kind of like developed the palette for the restaurant. These tiles I found, which are my favourite design element. The tiles make the place for me. And they should cause they’re way too expensive.

So we talked about your trip to Argentina. from a food standpoint, I’m now curious about the architecture part of your Germany trip. Was there a concept that you were really driving for here that you had seen somewhere else?

It’s not something I’d seen, but it’s so I think I mentioned before as I’ve always had the idea of doing a German place that’s got some Southern flare. And I said that for a long time, but look what I really think the restaurant is, it’s just an expression of me. So like growing up heavily German influenced at home, but I grew up in Charleston. So like everything outside of home was right. Lots of Southern, lots of lots of soul and trying to explain this place to people became exhausting because it doesn’t make sense. If you say German and Southern, you know, right. Then people say fusion and I hate that word. Right. So now what I say is it’s, it’s literally just it’s about me. And I don’t mean that in a selfish way. I mean, it, in that it’s like the culmination of my experiences, like Lifewise and culinary that we just turned into the food here. And for a long time, we tried to force some German into this, some Southern into this, make sure everything had a bit of both and that became exhausting. And also I felt like we weren’t living up to our full potential. So now it’s just like, we, whatever inspires us. And it’s always something slightly German or slightly Southern, but we just go with whatever the idea is and what it inspires us and what we feel like cooking. And if it’s not both German and Southern, who cares it’s it’s us, you know?

So you talked about how you found this place. How’d you build it? And when did you start building it?

We started building, I think the middle of 2017 summer. We found this place, found a good architect, and a good builder. And then my partner, Dan and I actually designed the whole thing ourselves. I always knew that I wanted it to look like a beer hall, but not like one you’d find in Germany, or not a traditional one anyway. It was important to me that it looked a little cleaned up, modern and there’s a lot of mid-century elements here. There’s a lot of the tile we talked about. And I think the reason that was so important to me is that I knew we were not gonna make anything traditional food wise or cocktail. It was going to be our interpretation of what this food is because it’s new food. It’s German and Southern. We pay homage to tradition. And like our wine list is almost entirely Austrian and German. But it couldn’t look old and tired. It had to look cleaned up and new so that the plates and the food made sense. And I think I have to give credit to Dan cuz he did most of the design work, but it really turned out. It’s airy, it’s bright. It’s sleek in a way, but not so modern either that it’s off putting yeah. I truly truly love it. It makes me happy every time I walk in here,

That’s powerful. And honestly, I’ve eaten so many other good places in Chicago. But I just don’t ever think this will be beaten. And I just think there’s something in that that’s really special.

I agree. I think we touched earlier on the family and the staff and, and our ethos here. So often we came up in restaurants where you had to follow a script at the table or you got yelled at in the kitchen. I try to empower our staff. We don’t have a dress code. You have to know the menu. You have to know the allergies. But the way you interact with your tables is up to you because it’s important to me that personality shines. And I think that’s part of what hit you about it.

On Finding Time For Inspiration.

Where do you go for inspiration? How do you find time for it when the chef’s schedule is so punishing?

Oh, man. My mind wanders. I also read a lot, But it’s easy in the summer. We’ll go to the farmer’s market, see something beautiful, buy way too much stuff and bring it all back and we’ll, we’ll start messing around. Some ingredients inspire, but sometimes I have an idea of how I want to plate something. And I don’t even know what the dish is yet, but I can like picture something pretty on a plate and then we’ll start messing with different ways to get there. And also, like the staff, I’m lucky to have a great crew of guys that have been with me a long time. We spitball all day, and it’s not just about me here. Both Felipe and Frogie, my sous chefs, have dishes on the menu, and they both come from Latin American backgrounds, but they know my food, and they know what we’re doing here. And they’ll come with really cool ideas that might not be a hundred per cent. But we will work on them and tweak them. And so, I guess reading, dining out, talking to other chefs, ingredients, and mostly just allowing the staff we have here to feel like they’re allowed input. That’s inspiring in itself.

And so, how do you find the time for that?

How do you not? I don’t know. It’s my job, you know. Today, I didn’t do anything, but yesterday I was at home doing some chores, and I found myself picking through a bunch of old cookbooks I had in the basement that wasn’t German or Southern but just looking at some old French stuff. And it gave me an idea for something coming up in the winter.

Ah, your man cave. Tell us about how you designed that.

I don’t know. I got lucky when I bought the house. The basement was already dug out, so it’s full height, and it’s just literally my library. I don’t watch much TV, so I sit by the fire down there. I have all my cookbooks within reach, a little bit of whiskey and sometimes it’s when I’m not trying to think of a dish, and I’m just like chilling at home, reading something that inspiration hits.

I read a piece in GQ about one of their writers going on a sound fast. Our default mode network (DMN) kicks into gear when you’re in the shower when you’re walking when you’re not consciously thinking. Any noise is stress, so the sound fast is a way to activate that default mode network and create creativity. I hate having the TV on for that reason.

I love watching my shows with my girlfriend, but background noise? No, thank you.

On The Hardest Year of Mark’s Life.

I know the Fall of 2019 was a challenging time. You were driving at the Bib, and I know your father wasn’t well, and you had some other personal stuff going on. What was happening to you?

Oh man, that was not my best year. I went through a divorce, and my father was not doing well. Everything was up in the air. Life’s always hard. I was trying to take care of myself, and then I just felt like it was another thing thrown at us. I’m not a control freak, but I don’t like not being in control. It was brutal. I felt like there was nothing I could do to make any of this better because no one knew it was coming.

But as always, we hunkered down, we put some money aside, and we made it through. My dad August of last year, and that was brutal too. But to be honest, you won’t hear a lot of people say that they were thankful for the shutdown in COVID. I truly am in many ways because it let me go home and spend time with him before he moved on. But it definitely was a scary time, and I feel very lucky to be here still.

What did you learn about yourself in a time like that?

That’s tough. I learned. Well, I’ve always kind of known that I can deal with whatever and bounce back. But I guess through this, I realised that it’s okay to trust people that I believe in to take care of either my business, my dog or, or anything in my life. And it’s okay to take time when you need time. So I guess learning it’s okay to trust.

Did you know that up front?

I think deep down, I did. My staff has been with me a long time, and I love them all. They are like my brothers and sisters, but it’s hard to let go, especially with a place that I put everything into and built. It’s not that I didn’t think they could handle it. It’s just I feel like I’m letting them down, not being here. And I guess I learned that it’s okay to ask for help because I would do the same for them.

How were you acting at the time? Were you keeping it very separate, like work and life?

I tried to, and unfortunately, I’m one of those people that I kind of wear my emotions. So it was difficult for me, but I had good chats with my staff. And I was like, “Hey, like if I come in and I look like I’m or like I’m sad, or I’m crying, it’s not work. It’s this.” And I also got better about just removing myself and trusting them to take care of it if I couldn’t handle it that day. In a lot of ways, like my energy when I’m here dictates everything. I learned that it might be a little bit more work for them if I’m not here overall. It’s probably a positive for me not to insert any negativity or sadness into the place because they have to be the ones here interacting, smiling, talking to guests, keeping the energy up. And it’s hard for me not to be here, but I had to learn how to let go of it and let them help me, just like I would help them.

And so going into 2020 where you thinking “new year, new me”?

I was optimistic. And again, like I wasn’t over everything, you know, like I go to therapy, and I talk about it, and I was feeling pretty good. And then we all know what happened and a whole difference.

And when did you know it was a big deal?

Not until we got shut down. Like I was aware, I watched the news. I knew it was happening. But I remember having a conversation with JP and Felipe, like my guys in the kitchen. I was like, “all right, a couple of weeks, and we’ll be back at it. This will get cleared up.” We tried to do the takeout for a while and keep going and do the patio. But once it got to be cold, nothing made sense. So we made the decision to shut down. Luckily we had some money in the bank. So I paid my managers all the way through, and we all kicked back 30% of our checks to hourly employees. So we did what we thought was right and did the best we could. And you know, luckily, the government helped out a little bit, but I wasn’t sure we were going to be here. It was the wild west. It was crazy. It’s hard to even think back on how it went because it’s so uncertain. And I have so many friends who didn’t open again.

How do you operate in those relationships now?

It doesn’t change anything between us. I try to offer any help or advice I can give, and it’s painful. I know I said a minute ago, I feel lucky to be here, but like I truly, truly do. It makes me really sad to know that all these places are gone because I know what it took for me to open this. To think of people that I care about and what they went through to open their places and then not be able to come back. It’s heartbreaking.

How was reopening? When did you see the light at the end of the tunnel?

The reopening was again like I feel very lucky. Staffing’s difficult for everybody right now, but I got most of my kitchen back, my front of the house back. And I think that’s a testament to how we helped take care of them during the lockdown. But it was hard, man, like opening up at 50% when everyone wanted to come back to work is difficult, but we did it for a while too. And we took big losses to get everybody back because we knew it was coming, and I needed these people. And so we bit the bullet and lost money for a couple of months to get the staff we needed back. I feel like we opened when we finally got to full capacity again and got the menu up the way we wanted it to be.

When was that from?

From March till probably June. The first couple of months, we ran like a small venue, which was a little easier to execute because we didn’t have everybody back. But during that time, I spent all of my time thinking about what I liked about the menu and the restaurant and what I didn’t and what I thought we could do better and what we could change. We just changed the menu again last week. But the two menus we’ve done since we’ve been at full capacity, I think, are our best ever.

I’m not an optimist by nature, but it feels really awesome to have taken this year and the cards we were dealt and turned it into something that made this place better than it’s ever been. We have regulars who talk about it, like, “We loved it before, but now it’s even better.” I feel very proud and lucky that we were able to turn this around and make it better somehow.

Obviously, notwithstanding being shut down, but coming off the back of 2019’s Bib Gourmand accomplishment, was there an added layer of frustration?

During the lockdown, we, my partner, I spent a lot of time looking at financials and figuring out how we could streamline things, how to be more profitable and it’s proven to be really helpful. I was frustrated and angry about it, but it was out of our control. What can you do?

On Reopening + Reimagining Hospitality.

Have you rebounded since reopening?

We’re killing it. And it’s a combination of everyone’s excited to be out again, and there are fewer places to go, unfortunately. And I think that we’re our best version of ourselves. And I think people feel that; the staff is happy. We talked about this before; food’s important, the beverage is important, and service is important. But I think what is most important is making sure that people are happy and have a smile on their faces. That is a combination of all those things, but that’s all that matters. And that’s what I tell my new staff like we’re training people. It’s like, “yes, you have to know the menu. Yes. You have to taste everything. You should know the wine list. If someone asks you something and you can, you can say, ‘I don’t know, let me ask somebody.” I don’t care. All that matters is that they leave happy, fulfilled, want to come back and whatever it takes for us to get there is what we’ll do.

How do you think hospitality and restaurants have to be reimagined?

That’s a good question. We’ve been talking about this for a while now. I’ll say this first: all I know is food is what I’m good at. It’s what I love. And it’s hard to get past that mental block of “this is just how this works.” One of the reasons I appreciate our friendship is because you open my eyes to some opportunities and different things that we could do because it literally just wouldn’t occur to me. Like I come here, my day is the same—almost every day. But I realize post-pandemic that there’s got to be other ways to monetize what we do.

We’re working on another concept, and I’m not going to say there will be a ghost kitchen, but we’re going to do our very best to make it as streamlined as possible, with way less employees utilizing the full space. I want to do another restaurant in the basement. That’s one way I think we can double down on the rent we pay, but there’s also the club idea we’ve been speaking about, which I think no one’s done right yet. And I’m not sure we’re quite there, but there’s definitely there’s opportunity.

What excites me about The Saturday Club is a couple of distinct components. One being wine, the other being food. As I’ve studied the existing supper clubs, I’ve concluded they’re all kind of the same. You’ve told me it’s no good when they come in because they’re fussy.

It’s a pain in the ass, and literally, they could just come here and have that same meal without paying membership to some club. I don’t get it.

I think what I’ve seen hosting all these retreats this year is that every restaurant is just reverting to how they made money before. And so what I want to try and do here is take our community, take a group of people who want to have conversations and want to learn, and have that unfold at the dinner table in cities across the country once per month. I don’t think the best place to have conversations is to learn anymore is the university. We certainly don’t think it’s a social club like a Soho House. But I do think it could be the dining table. And that’s what I really want to build is an infrastructure where we don’t have to live in a space to learn and absorb the culture. I think the best way to do that is through food and wine. We can actually take advantage of all the years you’ve been eating, mastering your craft, travelling and actually making that something.

I think we can be an amazing conduit to helping you build your membership, giving people something special when they come in. And then obviously the media platform that comes with this, we can create really cool content around you. We can kind of show the parts of your restaurant that Eater, Resy and The Infatuation don’t get to.

I would bet 75% of the people I talk to are not don’t get it. That’s like I told you, when I travel, my favorite thing to do is find either a small restaurant or bar, sit by myself, chat up the bartender. Where do you go? What are you doing after work? Like who should I talk to? And that’s why I’m pumped about Denver.

If people are listening to food critics who’ve, let’s be honest, never spent a day doing any of the stuff you’ve done, why would they not listen to you instead? That’s my take. I don’t need this to be a big thing. But if we could change a hundred people’s lives next year, how they view themselves, how they learn and give them something that we know they’re going to remember forever. It’s going to be kickass. I think people are hungry. People are hungry to talk about out what’s happened to them and how they built these things because the thought is next level. People don’t put that much thought into business books. I mean, there are, of course, a couple of exceptions to that rule, but on the whole, the thought that goes into food, the restaurant, the execution, it is the thing that keeps me coming back.

On Marks’ Next Chapter, Earning Stripes & Staging.

You mentioned this new concept. I’m curious: what are you trying to get there that you haven’t got here? Are you chasing a different feeling?

No. In some ways, I’m chasing an easier paycheck, if we’re being fully honest. I think our ribs are the best ribs that I have ever eaten and I love New Orleans, Austin, Texas dive bars. So I see no reason why we can’t replicate something like that. Have a super fun, simple menu, with great food, but nothing pretentious, just a little dark hole in the wall. And then ideally for me, there’d be a back or side entrance where you can go in the basement and there’s a counter or chef’s tasting table, which is like the antithesis of the bar upstairs. Bauhaus design clean.

I love the contrast.

Menu changes weekly, daily. I don’t know. A place for us to like have a creative outlet cause like Funkenhausen is running great. We change the menu quarterly, but it would be really fun to kind of flex and have a place where we can just be weird and make some weird food.

Is there a certain person you are all trying to replicate?

Not really. I don’t know. There are lots of places in New York, where you’ll find a concept upfront and then downstairs or in the back. Sodikoff does it well here, too. All of his buildings have two things going on. He kills it. It’s a smart way to use real estate. And I like the juxtaposition too, of having a really simple dirty dive bar and then a really clean high-end thing downstairs.

So what is your approach to earning stripes and proving your worth? And as you think about your future, this next concept, do you still feel like you have to do that?

The rational part of me says, no, I feel like I’m respected here. We got a bib. I’ve accomplished my goals here. Can we get better? Yeah. Will we? Sure. I don’t feel like I have a lot to prove, but there’s like the part of me that is never satisfied and always wants to be better and wants more. That feels like I still have something to prove. And I think that’s a good thing.

Where does that come from?

Honestly, probably my dad and my granddad from a young age. I always worked, I used to work on my granddad’s farm every summer and yes, I was like the boss’s grandson, but like I was treated like everybody else and I was always taught the value of hard work and the value of money. And I’ve always wanted to be the best that I can at whatever I do. I’ll never tell you that I’m the best at what I do, but I try to be. one of, One of my guys years ago told me, “Mark would’ve been happy being a cab driver as long as he was the best cab driver.”

We had a question from Mateo Price. Earlier, you said your perspective on Stage.’s has kind of evolved. So I’m curious, what was your stage? Did you only have one? And what are they actually designed to do?

I’ll tell you about one of the most horrible stages I’ve ever had in a minute, but traditionally it was as a way occasionally to get free labor. People would be looking for a cook and they would bring in 12 people. Call it a stage and be done. But people caught on pretty quickly.

The way I view it now and the way our stages work now are different. I had three on Sunday. I tell ’em straight up, “it’s a couple hours and it’s not about your work. Yes. I wanna see if you can cut something or if you can make a drink. I can discern that in 20 minutes. I wanna see if you get along with my staff. I wanna see how you carry yourself and then I wanna sit you down. I wanna feed you. And I wanna talk to you for a little it about your life and what you’re looking for.” Not just like, as a job, what you’re looking for. We’ve been short-staffed for about three weeks and I could have hired 20 people, but I took my time and we were hiring the right people because I cannot, and I will not upset the balance that we have here. Because it’s the most important thing we have. And so, at least for me, that’s how it’s changed.

And what was it to you when you started, when you were on the other end?

It didn’t feel good. It felt like being taken advantage of because I staged at plenty of places looking for work. It was always unpaid, although people are now talking about paid stages. It’s a different world and I think showing them that we are who we say we are is more important than telling them and that’s why I buy them dinner and a drink and we talk. It’s important that they know who we are and like what we’re going for and what we’re trying to be because it is a very competitive marketplace right now. Yes, I’m doing that for some personal and selfish reasons because I want them to be here, but I also want them to know that this is who we are, and I don’t wanna take advantage of people or time. I had two guys come through who, after 20 minutes, I knew like I wasn’t gonna hire. And I was honest, I told them, “look, guys, Thank you for coming. You’re welcome to stick around. If you like, I don’t think this is gonna work. Grab a seat at the bar. Have a bite on me, but no thanks.”

So I’ll tell you about the worst stage ever now. I wasn’t even looking for a job at this point and I won’t name the restaurant. I don’t wanna get sued (again). Kidding. So it was before we opened Carriage House, I went back to Charleston with Sean, my sous chef and Michael, my general manager. And we all spent a couple of days going around town and it’s August in Charleston. So it’s 110 degrees, a 100% per cent humidity. I spent 14 hours in a tin shed behind the restaurant with no air conditioning and I was given literally zero direction. They just told me to make things. And they knew like I was a chef, but not looking for a job. So like I understand like there’s some level of trust there, but within 20 minutes I was soaking wet. And it was just hour upon hour of like feeling like I was just like an indentured servant. And I’ll never forget that. I’ll never treat anybody that way.

Why did you do it?

It was a restaurant that I respected and I wanted to see what they did, which is the funny part because I actually wasn’t shown anything. I just did what I thought I should do. Not that I got nothing out of it but it is just it’s backwards and things need to change and they are.

On Mark’s Favourites.

So let’s turn the dials a bit. Curious about what your favourite book is? Let’s do a book and a cookbook.

The cookbook’s hard. My favourite book is a Moveable Feast. Ernest Hemingway. It’s semi-autobiographical about his time in Paris with Gertrude Stein and Fitzgerald. They all were expat writers in Paris, spending time in the cafes. It’s a beautiful book.

Do you know who gave it to you? How’d you find it?

I studied literature in college for a while, and I had to read a bunch of Hemingway, and then I realized I was really into it. I dig his style. It’s very succinct, short sentences. And I found a lot of beauty in how he created such a picture with like six words versus two paragraphs. So I just read everything that he wrote.

Cookbook? I’m going to do it to you.

There’s so many that inspire me for so many different reasons. But if I had to pick one, it’s called Frank Stitt’s Southern Table. It’s a chef from Birmingham, Alabama, his restaurant’s Highlands Bar and grill. He was one of the forefathers of the farm to table movement. I was lucky enough to eat there once, and it’s a beautiful restaurant. And the food is just so simple and beautiful, and every ingredient is just perfect. And yeah, it’s gorgeous.

I actually got to meet him at Charleston Food and Wine, like four or five years ago. And he was sick. I actually don’t even know if he’s still around, but I was really happy I got to meet him. I told him face to face. I was like, “I give every one of my sous chefs a copy of your book.” Because I think it’s one of the best examples of how I think about food, which is just like treating everything with respect, really clean and then using the same flavour several different ways. And I think he’s a master of that.

What do you think of action Bronson?

I love Action Bronson. Well, I love his music, but I think his show’s great too. It’s a weird question. Why do you ask?

His cookbook is probably most in the zeitgeist, especially among non-cooks. F*ck That’s Delicious is his show with VICE. He just published his book called “F*ck It, I’ll Start Tomorrow.” Which kind of tells the story of this guy growing up in Flushing in New York being bred to be an Albanian Karaoke wedding singer. He got into food because he lived in Flushing, and he and his mum would walk around town all the time. He was big in the gym, but then he got a job as a chef working at The Mets stadium. But he didn’t get on with the guy who ran it, so he went into a family joint, and broke his leg. And when he broke his leg, he realized how big he was. And that was the reforming period for him. And, and that’s when he got rap and everything else, but he continued to cook. And so I just think about him because of what he has been able to do with “F*ck, That’s Delicious.” I’d love us to replicate some of that.

Funk, That’s Delicious.

I just think he brings so much soul to something that can be seen as quite stuffy.

I totally agree with that. I watch his shows. It’s approachable, and he’s funny. Granted, he’s probably really high, but I think he has a good palette. I’ve been to a bunch of the places in New York that he’s talked about, and it’s a fresh look on a tired way of promoting restaurants.

What’s your favourite wine?

Ah, man. I dig on some red wines, but I think that white wine is way more versatile. I think other than the steak we have on the menu, we have a white wine that will pair better with everything we serve. I think reds tend to overpower. If I had to pick a grape, Loire Valley Sanceree. Tops for me.

When did you first have it?

Oh, man. I couldn’t remember when I first had it, but I remember when it blew my mind. My manager at the Carriage House, Michael had something called “SILEX” from a French producer named Didier And it was not cheap. $230/bottle was what we sold it for. I had a guest who came in poured me a taste of it. And I was like, “man, like, what is this? It’s like everything I want.” It’s like minerality acidity like dryness, like it’s just perfect. I wish I had some here. I’d open it for you.

What’s your best meal ever? And what’s your Death Row meal?

Death Row is easy. Medium rare ribeye. Some king crab legs. Baked potato. A couple of glasses of Cabernet Franc.

Best meal? Years ago during the James beard awards, I was in New York with Mindy, Stephanie and we went to Gramercy Tavern and they just cooked for us. We ordered a couple of things, but they sent out some supplements and really made it a special evening. And that’s probably my favourite meal.

Why?

Well, it was delicious. Michael Anthony’s an idol of mine. So I got to hang out with him and talk to him. But mostly it was just the ease and pace of service. It was perfect without any pretension, and so often you go out to somewhere fancy and it’s annoying almost. It’s just like, “I know what I want to eat, leave me alone.” But there, it never intrusive, but we always had what we wanted and then some, and I got to meet Danny Meyer, which is pretty cool, too awesome. So that has to be my favourite meal.

What, or who is, is most exciting to you right now?

That’s a tough question. Right now, to be honest, there’s no who. Like I’ve spent the last several months just trying to figure out how to get open again. And I haven’t really been doing anything, but I know it’s happening here. We’ve taken this time not to rebrand or change ourselves but to be smarter and better at what we do. And I think what’s gonna be cool is to see how everybody else does that as well. Cause it’s gonna be different everywhere. We all have to adapt. COVID is not going anywhere. How are we gonna deal with this? How can we keep going? How can we get better? And how do we take care of and get the people we need here to do?

What brings you joy?

That’s easy. My favourite thing about my job is that I get to stand in my kitchen and make something and watch someone carry it to a table, and I get to see their reaction. And luckily, it’s almost always good, but seeing someone smile after taking a bite is pure gratification. And that brings me joy. Beyond that, family, friends, my dog, reading something. That’s interesting. Good wine. Good whiskey, good friends.

There seems to be a wisdom about you now. Do you think you can give that to a 20-year-old?

I do. Part of the way that I think of managing people and teaching now is based on something my dad said to me a long time ago. For just a little background, my dad and I didn’t always get along. Like we were very close at the end, but he told me before he passed, he apologized and he told me the story about his father. He’s like, “I did the best I could with what I learned and how I was treated.” And I think that applies to literally everything in my life and that times were different back then. It was okay to treat people a certain way. We decided now that it’s not okay. And we have to figure out how to get those same lessons across and the same results achieved, but in a way, that’s healthy and respectful. And I think that’s what we’re doing here.

What do you feel you understand about the mentors you have now? It hasn’t always been smooth sailing, but it feels like you’ve come around.

So Mindy worked for Charlie Trotter. I never met the man, but I know he was difficult. So it was ingrained in her that this is how you teach. This is how you motivate. And over the last, I guess, 15 years, I think there’s been, not just in my industry, in every industry, a big shift. And I think it’s cool to be on the front end of that shift. And it’s cool to learn that you can get the same results and teach just as well without intimidation. Don’t get me wrong. Sometimes I get mad, but I try not to be that person. And I think that’s why we retain people. And I think that’s the key right now.

Are there any text quotes or movies that you go back to time and time again and are foundational to how you think?

Yeah, there there’s one tattoo on my arm. It’s a Hemingway quote. It says: “Hunger is good discipline” He meant it like actually being hungry. But I find a lot of inspiration in that. Because I work with food, but mostly for me, it’s a reminder to remain humble and hungry for what I want from my restaurant and my staff and my life. And that helps me remain disciplined and remind myself of what it takes to get there.